Comments on: Methods of Endurance Training: Summing Up Part 1

By: Haaken Moe

Haaken Moe — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 12:10:34 +0000

Thanks a lot for these really illuminating articles on endurance training!! I’ve put lots of it to work already, and have had great results. Thanks again!

One question: in the table above, the row on sweet spot training differs with respect to durations compared to what you have written in the article on sweet spot training. Also, this row is suspiciously similar to the tempo training row. Is there some sort of typo there?

By: lylemcd

lylemcd — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:00:07 +0000

It’s odd: early literature and training theory talked about raising the functional threshold in terms of the %age of maximum that could be sustained. So a goal might have been to raise that threshold from say 80% of maximum power output to 85% or what have you. Some recent work (for example one study following highly trained cyclists over the course of a year) has shown that threshold in terms of the %age of maximum (in this case, heart rate was measured) doesn’t change. What changes is the power output/speed that the threshold represents. So whereas you might only hold 250 watts at threshold initially, 3 months down the road, you might be able to hold 280 watts at the same HR.

By: Zé

Zé — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:26:54 +0000

So you are saying, relative to heart rate, the lactate / functional / whatever threshold will not change over time with training. Interesting…this would indicate that the performance would be either improved efficiency, lower bodyweight, or increase in stroke volume. What is it about the long bouts of aerobic training that produces an effect on one of those things? Do you think stroke volume is increasing, so power output increases at a given heart rate?

By: Leigh

Leigh — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:07:14 +0000

Very interesting, thanks

By: lylemcd

lylemcd — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:30:28 +0000

TSCM: Here’s what I said “Guerrouj’s training is very similar to Arthur Lydiard’s training, a metric ton of ’strong aerobic running’ (essentially intensive endurance) topped off with small amounts of speed work and intervals.”

“Very similar” is not synonymous with “identical” and he lists hard interval sessions in Herrouj’s training.

And the source is actually an article reprint from an Australian magazine called VO2 max written by someone named Robbie Johnston.

If he is misrepresenting Gerrouj’s training, you can take up with either him or the author of the article.

By: lylemcd

lylemcd — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:23:52 +0000

It’s probably more accurate to say that both target both, just to different degrees. clearly intervals are working the muscles and steady state work targets the heart. It’s just a matter of degrees (in the same way that all weight training impacts in both muscle and nervous system function, just to differing degrees based on loading parameters).

As far as MMA is concerned, keep in mind that specificity always holds. Joel Jamieson includes some MMA specific/upper body aerobic/conditioning methods in his book for that reason.

By: paolo27th

paolo27th — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:32:21 +0000

Where you talk about interval training and you say that steady state cardio targets mainly the muscles while intervals primarily affect the heart got me thinking (I actually always thought it was the other way round).
Wouldn`t then training on a stationary bike, where one can put 100% effort on a smaller muscle group, be even better at developing endurance in those muscles when compared for example to running?
If that was the case then, supposing someone got enough high intensity heart-related work from practicing a certain sport (MMA in my case), wouldn`t this person be better off with a mixture of stationary cycling and swimming (I`m even thinking about swimming while holding one of those floating boards between one`s knees in order to further isolate the upper body) as far as endurance training goes?
Hope this isn`t a silly question.

By: tscm

tscm — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:20:41 +0000

I wouldn’t be taking Keith Livingstone’s word on El Guerrouj’s training, particularly when concrete examples exist that show he does hard intervals and hills from the start and runs nowhere near the volumes Lydiard would suggest for a miler, the only similarity to Lydiard stuff is very basic facts that i.e. he runs frequently and goes from a general phase to a specific pre-comp phase (which will of course be the case for pretty well every top level middle distance runner). This is generally sufficient for the likes of Livingstone to proclaim that every athlete is doing what Lydiard said all along, where really their training is miles away from his reccomendations, and their opinion is just proximity bias at its finest.

I expect Livingstone is referencing this http://members.iinet.net.au/~peterg1/run/el_train.html

Which has for the general/base phase:

“Aerobic endurance is of four types:
1) 30-45 min of continuous running
2) 50-60 min of continuous running
For this workout there are no pre-set conditions, he is not asked any specific pace. However, he is demanded that he runs at his maximum at that moment, this varies from day to day and has nothing to do with the season. So, this means that El Guerrouj can run one day between 3:00-3:10/km pace and sometimes at 2:50/km.
3) 4 x 2000 m in 5:10 with 2 min recovery
4) 6 x 1000 m in 2:30 with 2 min recovery

The distances of the repetitions have been standardized because his coach considers important to set a “work rhythm” with high intensity (around 70% for him). For this reason, when El Guerrouj can not finish a certain training session, he repeats the workout the following day, instead of seeking a different solution.”

With 6 or 7 of these sessions per week combined, TOTAL, i.e. interval sessions + continuous running.

“Power.
He does once a week up-hills 10 x 300 m and horizontal jumps and vertical jumps over hurdles.”

2:48/km for 59:15 is the World Record pace for the half marathon, and El Guerrouj is no half marathoner, so 2:50/km is really approaching “maximum” as stated not 90% of best aerobic pace, note ZERO runs over 60min, and many well below i.e. 30-45 min, out of only 6-7/week TOTAL of intervals plus these continous runs.
2:30/km is close to world record pace for 3km (actual is 2:26/km), 5:10/2km is his lifetime PR pace for 5km, 6*1000 and 4*2000 with that low a recovery will be very tough for him to complete (especially given the statement that at times he cannot finish them).
10*300 hills is 10*50ish sec which is higher intensity again and will generate serious lactate.

Again, this is his general prep.

How on earth someone can relate this to 60-90 min daily at 90% best aerobic pace with no intervals and just some striders for neuromuscular co-ordination is beyond me, it has absolutely nothing to do with Lydiard and Livingstone is just talking a bunch of proximity bias. It would seem that if an athlete runs at all they must be following Lydiard’s methods.