Yes, this does make sense.

The latter. The scapula need to protract at the ‘front’ of the movement, if you’re keeping it retracted, you won’t be getting optimal dynamic training for the scapular retractors.

However, don’t let the shoulder overstretch or relax completely as that can stress the rotator cuff. It can be a fine line sometimes. I hope that makes sense.

Lyle

Thanks,

Marc

Deadlifts, might be some carry over. A lot will probably depend on how good they are at activating the midback during the deadlift in the first place.

Tangentially, IME, most people have a lot of trouble activating their midback when they begin training. Some of it is due to posture being poor, some of it is not being able to see what’s being done.

When I have taught cable rows hands on, I find that manually cuing the retraction of the scapula does wonders. I’ll put the fingers of one hand on the scapula and actively cue bringing them together during the movement. This not only helps folks understand what they are trying to accomplish but also gives them something to focus on muscularly.

I’ve also taught shrugbacks (pure scapular retraction without the arm bend) prior to full cable rows for the same reason. Sometimes a rep or two of shrugbacks prior to cable rows helps to ingrain this as well.

As to the machine pullover, I think it’s one of the places where machines are demonstrably superior to any free weight or even cable equivalent.

DB pullovers are, IME, a waste of time, the line of pull is all wrong and there is zero resistance at the top which is why so many people can move such absurd weights over tiny ROM’s. As long as they avoid the point where the arms are straight overhead, the lever arm becomes insanely smaller.

The cable pullover (standing facing a stack)is an improvement but usually limits range of motion because the plates hit either the top or bottom before full ROM is reached at the top or the bottom.

The machine pullover eliminates all of those problems and is an amazing way to hit the lats, assuming it’s done correctly, without use of the biceps. It’s a great finisher at the end of a back workout when the biceps are fried but you need or want more lat work.

I’ll be honest that I’m no sure I’ve ever actually used an old style Nautilus pullover. I’ve used Cybex (at a gym back in Austin) and the gym we’re at now has a Hammer machine (which primarily lacks for a foot plate to help start the movement to avoid shoulder problems). All of the machine I’ve ever seen, used or trained people on seem to work as well as any other.

And I think we’re all in agreement about the humeral/scap thing. I just wasn’t sure how Mats could see what was going on from the side, I agree that once full scap retraction has bene reached, there’s little additional advantage to more ROM (esp. since it’s limited by rear delt strength more than anything to do with the back). It’s just where that point will be is going to depend on individual mechanics.

Do you feel that improvements in the deadlift and machine pullover (if available) will carry over as an increased ability to recruit/activate the musculature of the upper back during rowing variants?

With regards to a wide grip = wide lats, it would seem like there is a potential for a bit of extra stress on the very outer fibers of the lats due to fiber segmentation, but that seems to be counteracted by the reduced ROM so who knows if there is any net effect on lat growth. I definitely agree with your saying that the best exercises for lat width will be whichever ones elicit the most growth for a particular trainee.

As far as elbow position relative to the torso at the end of the concentric ROM, I always used the rule of thumb that when the scapulae stopped moving, so too should the humerii.

I realize that this article pertains to the cable row, but since I briefly mentioned pullovers at the beginning, do you have any opinion on the value of machine pullovers and whether some of the current options available (Nautilus Nitro Plus Pullover, Hammer Strength, Cybex, etc.) are as effective as the old Nautilus 1st generation or if they are inferior as some would lead you to believe.

Thanks for the knowledge!

Lyle

I’ll be addressing pulldowns in some detail in a later article.