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	<title>Comments on: Carbohydrate and Fat Controversies: Part 2</title>
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	<link>http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/carbohydrate-and-fat-controversies-part-2.html</link>
	<description>Training and Nutrition advice, straight from the monkey's mouth.</description>
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		<title>By: Hero999</title>
		<link>http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/carbohydrate-and-fat-controversies-part-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-6937</link>
		<dc:creator>Hero999</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Dec 2011 09:32:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://65.181.182.145/?p=857#comment-6937</guid>
		<description>I agree with a lot of what&#039;s written here. Humans evolved from meat eaters, 10,000 years ago most of our energy came from animal sources. The agricultural revolution sparked a change to plant based energy.

I remember reminding someone in my jujitsu club of this when we were having a curry. He started going on about how it&#039;s not real Indian food which is mostly vegetarian and humans have only recently started eating more meat. I told him that it depends on what you mean by recently and in evolutionary terms getting most of our energy from plants is very recent.

One point frequently raised by vegetarians I do agree with is sustainability. Plant based food sources are a very cheap source of fuel. Doubling the amount of energy from animal sources would mean having to grow ten times the crops to feed the animals we eat. It&#039;s just not sustainable, nor is it economically viable to go back to the stone age and get most of our energy from animal sources.

Increasing the amount of fruits and vegetables is also difficult because they have a lower energy density than grains, sugar beet/cane, potatoes etc. A field containing broccoli with the same amount of calories as the field of corn would occupy a far greater surface area.

The truth is, refined carbohydrates are a very cheap energy source and the alternatives are costly, both to us and the earth.

What can we eat then?

We could eat more soya but there are potential health problems there too.

How do we avoid the health problems many of us are experiencing now whilst eating less meat?

Of course nature will eventually sort it our for us, in the long term we&#039;ll evolve to be healthy on our modern diet of cheap refined carbs but this will be a very slow and painful process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with a lot of what&#8217;s written here. Humans evolved from meat eaters, 10,000 years ago most of our energy came from animal sources. The agricultural revolution sparked a change to plant based energy.</p>
<p>I remember reminding someone in my jujitsu club of this when we were having a curry. He started going on about how it&#8217;s not real Indian food which is mostly vegetarian and humans have only recently started eating more meat. I told him that it depends on what you mean by recently and in evolutionary terms getting most of our energy from plants is very recent.</p>
<p>One point frequently raised by vegetarians I do agree with is sustainability. Plant based food sources are a very cheap source of fuel. Doubling the amount of energy from animal sources would mean having to grow ten times the crops to feed the animals we eat. It&#8217;s just not sustainable, nor is it economically viable to go back to the stone age and get most of our energy from animal sources.</p>
<p>Increasing the amount of fruits and vegetables is also difficult because they have a lower energy density than grains, sugar beet/cane, potatoes etc. A field containing broccoli with the same amount of calories as the field of corn would occupy a far greater surface area.</p>
<p>The truth is, refined carbohydrates are a very cheap energy source and the alternatives are costly, both to us and the earth.</p>
<p>What can we eat then?</p>
<p>We could eat more soya but there are potential health problems there too.</p>
<p>How do we avoid the health problems many of us are experiencing now whilst eating less meat?</p>
<p>Of course nature will eventually sort it our for us, in the long term we&#8217;ll evolve to be healthy on our modern diet of cheap refined carbs but this will be a very slow and painful process.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/carbohydrate-and-fat-controversies-part-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-6817</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Oct 2011 02:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://65.181.182.145/?p=857#comment-6817</guid>
		<description>I noticed you said:

&quot;In our ancestral diet, fiber intakes were monstrous, averaging 100-150 grams per day. As well, despite the high fat intake, the source of that fat was far, far different than our modern intake. Much higher intakes of polyunsaturated and mono-unsaturated fats and far lower intakes of saturated fat were fairly typical.&quot;

I know you have the ability to thoroughly read studies and find the problems when it comes to body recomposition (BR). I really thank you for going through the literature since I don&#039;t have the time to look through BR literature and find the holes, Im finding holes of my own in medical research.

I really think you should read into more up to date literature from many journals ranging from medical journals to anthropological journals. You would then see that your above statement is not in line with what the science is saying as far as fiber and fat choices are concerned. 

You should know that some of the data sets used incorrect laboratory methods and these data sets are being cited in more recent papers. We know there are no known cultures that have consumed more than 100 grams of fiber, I believe the highest estimates are around 86 grams from some agrarian cultures in Africa. If you also look at the Womenʼs Health Initiative study you will see that fiber had no effect on weight loss, colon cancer and heart disease.

The Hadza spit out excess fiber - http://www.mendeley.com/research/composition-of-tubers-used-by-hadza-foragers-of-tanzania/

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;id=6GDELypdTUcC&amp;pgis=1

Now if we look at saturated fat there are MANY studies and anthropological evidence showing this was a preferred source of fuel and is very stable in the human body (compared to polyunsaturated oils which are highly prone to oxidize). There is no one in the scientific community (doing good science) saying that polyunsaturated fatty acids in the form of n-6 is healthful (as a fuel source) and has been abundant in the human diet. Monounsaturated fat is also hard to come by in the prehistoric times (a very good fuel source nonetheless). That would have to be a lot of avocados, certain nuts and seeds and olives; which were very hard to come by.

http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2010/01/13/ajcn.2009.27725.abstract

http://www.njmonline.nl/getpdf.php?t=a&amp;id=10000756

thanks for your continued research to help us look our best!
Josh</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I noticed you said:</p>
<p>&#8220;In our ancestral diet, fiber intakes were monstrous, averaging 100-150 grams per day. As well, despite the high fat intake, the source of that fat was far, far different than our modern intake. Much higher intakes of polyunsaturated and mono-unsaturated fats and far lower intakes of saturated fat were fairly typical.&#8221;</p>
<p>I know you have the ability to thoroughly read studies and find the problems when it comes to body recomposition (BR). I really thank you for going through the literature since I don&#8217;t have the time to look through BR literature and find the holes, Im finding holes of my own in medical research.</p>
<p>I really think you should read into more up to date literature from many journals ranging from medical journals to anthropological journals. You would then see that your above statement is not in line with what the science is saying as far as fiber and fat choices are concerned. </p>
<p>You should know that some of the data sets used incorrect laboratory methods and these data sets are being cited in more recent papers. We know there are no known cultures that have consumed more than 100 grams of fiber, I believe the highest estimates are around 86 grams from some agrarian cultures in Africa. If you also look at the Womenʼs Health Initiative study you will see that fiber had no effect on weight loss, colon cancer and heart disease.</p>
<p>The Hadza spit out excess fiber &#8211; <a href="http://www.mendeley.com/research/composition-of-tubers-used-by-hadza-foragers-of-tanzania/" rel="nofollow">http://www.mendeley.com/research/composition-of-tubers-used-by-hadza-foragers-of-tanzania/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&#038;lr=&#038;id=6GDELypdTUcC&#038;pgis=1" rel="nofollow">http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&#038;lr=&#038;id=6GDELypdTUcC&#038;pgis=1</a></p>
<p>Now if we look at saturated fat there are MANY studies and anthropological evidence showing this was a preferred source of fuel and is very stable in the human body (compared to polyunsaturated oils which are highly prone to oxidize). There is no one in the scientific community (doing good science) saying that polyunsaturated fatty acids in the form of n-6 is healthful (as a fuel source) and has been abundant in the human diet. Monounsaturated fat is also hard to come by in the prehistoric times (a very good fuel source nonetheless). That would have to be a lot of avocados, certain nuts and seeds and olives; which were very hard to come by.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2010/01/13/ajcn.2009.27725.abstract" rel="nofollow">http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2010/01/13/ajcn.2009.27725.abstract</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.njmonline.nl/getpdf.php?t=a&#038;id=10000756" rel="nofollow">http://www.njmonline.nl/getpdf.php?t=a&#038;id=10000756</a></p>
<p>thanks for your continued research to help us look our best!<br />
Josh</p>
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		<title>By: Bohdan Krop</title>
		<link>http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/carbohydrate-and-fat-controversies-part-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-6796</link>
		<dc:creator>Bohdan Krop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2011 15:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://65.181.182.145/?p=857#comment-6796</guid>
		<description>Very well presented. While I would heartily agree with your perspective of carb intake varying from person to person based on goals, activity level, genetics, etc., there is one aspect of carb intake that I felt was not included in the debate that should have been considered. I apologize if it is presented/considered elsewhere in your articles and books. It seems that your main argument of basis for determining carb intake was relegated to hormonal effect and energy/caloric need. As there is no technical &quot;need&quot; for carbs as a source of energy, your argument was simply that carb intake be based subjectively on genetics, activity level, goals etc. However, it seems that the essential nutrients primarily found exclusively or at least largely in plant foods vs. animal based foods was ignored. For example, fiber intake was not mentioned. While I recognize that upper and lower fiber intake levels are debateable and not always well established, I do feel that there is a large body of research that supports the idea of higher fiber intakes correlate with better overall health. The question one may ask in this regard is how many carbs (and what kind) would one need to consume daily to reach the ideal daily fiber intakes? Would 20-50 grams of carbs a day provide enough dietary fiber to prevent the often constipated state that I often find in my high protein-high fat dieting clients? If we chose a low glycemic vegetable carb such as broccoli, 69 grams of carbs would provide close to the recommended daily intake of fiber of @ 38 grams (Institute of medicine). Again, I realize that these intakes are debateable. Some may argue that 15 grams of fiber daily may be sufficient. Vitamin and mineral content of plant foods should also be considered as certain levels are found exclusively in plant foods (such as Vit. C etc). I point these out not to argue one way or another, but merely to say they should be part of the consideration of determining ideal carb intakes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well presented. While I would heartily agree with your perspective of carb intake varying from person to person based on goals, activity level, genetics, etc., there is one aspect of carb intake that I felt was not included in the debate that should have been considered. I apologize if it is presented/considered elsewhere in your articles and books. It seems that your main argument of basis for determining carb intake was relegated to hormonal effect and energy/caloric need. As there is no technical &#8220;need&#8221; for carbs as a source of energy, your argument was simply that carb intake be based subjectively on genetics, activity level, goals etc. However, it seems that the essential nutrients primarily found exclusively or at least largely in plant foods vs. animal based foods was ignored. For example, fiber intake was not mentioned. While I recognize that upper and lower fiber intake levels are debateable and not always well established, I do feel that there is a large body of research that supports the idea of higher fiber intakes correlate with better overall health. The question one may ask in this regard is how many carbs (and what kind) would one need to consume daily to reach the ideal daily fiber intakes? Would 20-50 grams of carbs a day provide enough dietary fiber to prevent the often constipated state that I often find in my high protein-high fat dieting clients? If we chose a low glycemic vegetable carb such as broccoli, 69 grams of carbs would provide close to the recommended daily intake of fiber of @ 38 grams (Institute of medicine). Again, I realize that these intakes are debateable. Some may argue that 15 grams of fiber daily may be sufficient. Vitamin and mineral content of plant foods should also be considered as certain levels are found exclusively in plant foods (such as Vit. C etc). I point these out not to argue one way or another, but merely to say they should be part of the consideration of determining ideal carb intakes.</p>
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		<title>By: lylemcd</title>
		<link>http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/carbohydrate-and-fat-controversies-part-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-5168</link>
		<dc:creator>lylemcd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:52:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://65.181.182.145/?p=857#comment-5168</guid>
		<description>Krehl WA et. al. Some metabolic changes induced by low carbohydrate diets. Am J Clin Nutr (1967) 20: 139-148.

Phinney SD et. al. The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis without caloric restriction: physical and biochemical adaptations. Metabolism (1983) 32: 757-768.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Krehl WA et. al. Some metabolic changes induced by low carbohydrate diets. Am J Clin Nutr (1967) 20: 139-148.</p>
<p>Phinney SD et. al. The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis without caloric restriction: physical and biochemical adaptations. Metabolism (1983) 32: 757-768.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/carbohydrate-and-fat-controversies-part-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-5166</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://65.181.182.145/?p=857#comment-5166</guid>
		<description>&quot; I’d note that this effect primarily occurs when weight is lost; in studies of very low-carbohydrate diets where weight is gained, blood lipid levels often get much much worse.&quot;

I have not found this article. Could you please provide the reference link or at least which peer-reviewed article shows this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; I’d note that this effect primarily occurs when weight is lost; in studies of very low-carbohydrate diets where weight is gained, blood lipid levels often get much much worse.&#8221;</p>
<p>I have not found this article. Could you please provide the reference link or at least which peer-reviewed article shows this?</p>
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		<title>By: Bluebear</title>
		<link>http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/carbohydrate-and-fat-controversies-part-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-5072</link>
		<dc:creator>Bluebear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jun 2010 11:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://65.181.182.145/?p=857#comment-5072</guid>
		<description>I really like your articles, easy to read and great information! The only thing im missing is links to all the studies you are referring too, but that&#039;s just my curiosity!

I read an article in the newspaper last night, a nutritional expert, who wrote that &quot;fat wasn&#039;t a part of our ancestors diets&quot; she was referring to the stone age diet that people have been starting to use. She absolutely ment that they ate wild bird and low fat fish and stuff like that.

Got me annoyed, slightly. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like your articles, easy to read and great information! The only thing im missing is links to all the studies you are referring too, but that&#8217;s just my curiosity!</p>
<p>I read an article in the newspaper last night, a nutritional expert, who wrote that &#8220;fat wasn&#8217;t a part of our ancestors diets&#8221; she was referring to the stone age diet that people have been starting to use. She absolutely ment that they ate wild bird and low fat fish and stuff like that.</p>
<p>Got me annoyed, slightly. <img src='http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Manne</title>
		<link>http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/carbohydrate-and-fat-controversies-part-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-3609</link>
		<dc:creator>Manne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 14:30:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://65.181.182.145/?p=857#comment-3609</guid>
		<description>Bruno,

there are studies suggesting that high level of LDL is associated with a high carb intake. It is not what the LDL is made of, it is about how it is produced. If I recall correctly, with a high carb intake the liver starts churning out low density cholesterol.

// Manne</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruno,</p>
<p>there are studies suggesting that high level of LDL is associated with a high carb intake. It is not what the LDL is made of, it is about how it is produced. If I recall correctly, with a high carb intake the liver starts churning out low density cholesterol.</p>
<p>// Manne</p>
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		<title>By: Melanie</title>
		<link>http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/carbohydrate-and-fat-controversies-part-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-3517</link>
		<dc:creator>Melanie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://65.181.182.145/?p=857#comment-3517</guid>
		<description>Abe,
Just wanted to point out that, although Neanderthals and Modern Humans had a common ancestor about 550,000 years ago, we are not decended from Neanderthals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Abe,<br />
Just wanted to point out that, although Neanderthals and Modern Humans had a common ancestor about 550,000 years ago, we are not decended from Neanderthals.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruno</title>
		<link>http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/carbohydrate-and-fat-controversies-part-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-3501</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:49:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://65.181.182.145/?p=857#comment-3501</guid>
		<description>thought LDL came from fat, and not from carbs</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thought LDL came from fat, and not from carbs</p>
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		<title>By: lylemcd</title>
		<link>http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/carbohydrate-and-fat-controversies-part-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-3472</link>
		<dc:creator>lylemcd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 19:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://65.181.182.145/?p=857#comment-3472</guid>
		<description>Abe

Read the summary another 4-6 times until the words makes sense.  Your myopia that sat fat is &#039;good&#039; is just as idiotic as the &#039;myopia&#039; of others that it&#039;s bad

IT DEPENDS ON CONTEXT!

Lyle</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Abe</p>
<p>Read the summary another 4-6 times until the words makes sense.  Your myopia that sat fat is &#8216;good&#8217; is just as idiotic as the &#8216;myopia&#8217; of others that it&#8217;s bad</p>
<p>IT DEPENDS ON CONTEXT!</p>
<p>Lyle</p>
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